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raytobe
Advanced Member
USA
293 Posts |
 Posted - 10/05/2006 : 8:01:57 PM
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| Which does your operation use? We have always used recaps but they seem to me to wear out very quickly and sometimes develop other problems. There have been a few instances were a bus needs tires and no recaps were available for a week. In these cases the foreman ordered a few new ones and to my eye they seem to be lasting much much longer,at least on the busses I work on (each mechanic has certain busses assigned to him and only he works on them from new till death). As I have not been exacting in noticing mileage number comparisons, could it be that it may actually be cheaper in the long run to go with all new? Could different rubber compounds be a factor? |
Edited by - raytobe on 10/05/2006 8:04:26 PM
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Doug
Active Member
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 07:53:10 AM
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| I just started using new tires bcause of the wear issue with recaps . Goodyear sells me a tire for just under $200.00 . Then I get get back $35.00 for the casings so tire ends up costing the same as a cap . |
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Brad Barker
Administrator
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 12:08:20 PM
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Some people like recaps and some do not. I do run them in most applications and have performed analysis on tires and types of tires. A new tire will last longer in some cases but cost per mile are much higher. If you want to save money and have some time to spend tracking tire costs, wear characteristics and do not mind taking some extra time to perform the proper tire maintenance, you will save a lot of money by using recaps.
Raytobe stated he buys a tire for $200 then gets $35 for the casing. This makes his total tire cost $165. (I am just using his example which may work best for him)Lets say it was a steer tire with 16/32 of tread and he ran it down to 2/32 and total mileage was 40,000 miles. His cost per mile on the new tire is .0041 providing he gets the $35 for the casing. Miles per 32nd are 2857. If he were to have it capped for $110 with a drive tire tread that has 22/32 tread and ran it down to 4/32 and a total of 30,000 miles his cost would be .0037 per mile. Miles per 32 are 1667. (I average 2500 miles per 32 on my caps) This is just a scenario using his figures. It shows that cost per mile is somewhat lower on recaps but mileage is less too. If the runout mileage was the same between new and recap, costs per mile difference would be much greater.
What is not stated in the above scenario is that you can recap a casing many times so the savings is multiplied. Where raytobe is buying a new tire each time, I buy a new tire only every second or third recap.
Recaps do need special care. If you choose to run recaps there are several precautions you need to pay attention to and procedures to follow. If you do not have the time or means to take these precautions then you might be best advised to buy new each time. Your costs can end up being substancially higher however, especially if you have a large fleet.
In the analysis that I have performed on my fleet I have similar values as stated above. I pay more for tires initially but I buy the best tires I can obtain. This makes my casings last longer so I get more caps on them. I do run some buses with new tires at all positions too. You really need to get pencil out and run some figures and perform tests for yourself.
If you need more advice on the topic I can give you specifics by emailing bbarker@pcschools.us.
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Brad A. Barker |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 3:30:59 PM
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We switched from capping to Virgin tires over 10 years ago, there were two reasons: Cost and cost.
Our recapped tires (D4200) lasted apx. 45,000 to 50,000 miles, while a new tire would run 100,000+, and the casings COST us money to dispose of if they were capped.
Also, since tires wear out over a few years (unlike trucks), often times the casings were 3 to 4 years old at the FIRST capping. This ment that they would not last until all the cap was worn off before we had a sidewall failure. More $$ wasted.
Now for the biggy... In MN you cannot run ANY tire on a School Bus that has ANY type of repair. Over 80% of casings need some form of repair before they can be capped. This means you cannot run that tire on a bus. I'm not convinced this is at all necessary legislation, but that is what we have to live with.
Even before we factored in the extra labor of swapping tires 2x as often, the dollars and sence indicated that virgin tires would save us money. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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joe_w
Active Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 4:11:51 PM
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| If you really want to push and save a lot of money get 6 new tires with rims that you only use for the inspection station, then just keep buying used tires. I had a bunch of tires with rims a while back I would have sold for 10-50 bucks each, I'm sure plenty of other guys do now. |
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raytobe
Advanced Member
USA
293 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2006 : 5:21:05 PM
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| Thanks for the responses. Our recaps are lucky to get 20,000 miles before needing replacement. In Virginia 4/32 is the minimum allowable tread and if the bus is a road trip vehicle that travels all over the state I'll take that into account and replace before the minimum a lot of the time. BTW, we don't have the typical state bus inspectors in Virginia (at least in my area) that I gather other states do . The mechanic is state certified to inspect vehicles just as one would be in a public station and each mechanic does his own inspections yearly and places the sticker on the windshield. We go through many many tires with a fleet of around 170 buses. |
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asnowsquall
Senior Member
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2006 : 11:30:36 AM
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Sounds like the making of a bussiness.... Truck the still good tires to states that allow them. Especially for someone like me running a skoolie where it only will travel like 2-4K miles a year. So who is the closest to Vermont and wants to get rid of some still good tires?
Dave |
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MorrisV
Advanced Member
Canada
231 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2006 : 7:54:36 PM
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Recapped tires are not that different than new tires. You get what you pay for. I have put a link here to an interesting web page http://www.retread.org/Government/index.cfm/ID/257.htm
This is the The Retread Information Bureau. I was shocked to find a Retread Information Bureau but there you have it. |
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rswboe
Top Member
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 12:53:50 PM
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| Brad, how long does it generally take for a tire, any tire, to run out in your operation? I'll usually cap tires once, because I won't cap a casing over 5 years old. My caps run, on an average of 40k, which may be as long as 3 years depending on the vehicle. By the time the cap has run out, it may 6 years old. After 6 or so years, one will start to see ozone damage on the sidewalls, which generally fails inspection around here. |
Live each like it's going to be your last, one day you'll be right! |
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MorrisV
Advanced Member
Canada
231 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 7:45:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by joe_w
If you really want to push and save a lot of money get 6 new tires with rims that you only use for the inspection station, then just keep buying used tires. I had a bunch of tires with rims a while back I would have sold for 10-50 bucks each, I'm sure plenty of other guys do now.
Joe,
No you don't. You do not change your tires for inspection stations and then change them back. You like to suggest that you do rediculous things like screwing shut windows, dropping a kid who cut himself on your bus at the police station and more. |
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bbird66
Top Member
USA
881 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2006 : 08:25:07 AM
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| Cant believe you would do that Joe w, thats not even funny. |
Were gonna miss you "Brent"..Good luck in "Heidi land"
"I know you miss the Wainwrights Bobby, but they were weak and stupid people...and that's why we have wolves and other large predators" .. The Far Side
"On a two hour delay when will my child be picked up??"
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Brad Barker
Administrator
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2006 : 11:18:29 AM
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rswboe,
My rule of thumb is; casing five years old maximum two caps. Yes, sometimes the casings get up to five years before the first cap has worn out, BUT, if I have an extrememly good set of casings I will cap them if they are six years old. I try to cap in sets if possible and keep them matched if possible.
Regardless of new or capped I usually will only get two winters on a drive tire. There is an exception however, I started buying Michelin XDN-2 tires and have tires that are going on three winters now. Still have 14-16/32nds. If this tire pans out like it appears I may decrease the use of caps in my fleet. Time will tell and this is just another tire test I am running.
I average 28-30K on my caps. I will pull them off prematurely at times if there is only 8-10/32nds left at the beginning of winter. I try to run them down to at least 6/32nds if possible. I have found that keeping more rubber on the road reduces casing injuries.
I don't know what you guys run but in Utah a type D bus is required to run 16 ply, load range H tires. I buy Michelin mostly but do run some Bridgestone and have tried a couple of others. I prefer Michelin and buy off of Government pricing.
With the increases in product costs across the board now I expect we will all be paying more for cap and new both. I haven't paid $200 for a new 16 ply for many years. |
Brad A. Barker |
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MorrisV
Advanced Member
Canada
231 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2006 : 7:15:40 PM
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Brad,
Would you know how to read the codes on a retread. I am looking to find out how to tell how many times a tire has be retreaded. We had a tire come in and the installer had said it had been remanned 10 times. I was shocked. I had no idea you could retread it that many times.
I forgot to ask him and I will not see him until next month now.
If you can it would be a nice piece of info we all could use. |
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2006 : 09:34:30 AM
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| We get mileage similar to what Brad stated . The single biggest problem with caps is casing failure, not tread failure. Usually failures are directly attributed to the casing, so having a recapper do a thorough casing inspection is very important. Most of the good one already do a good job. The caps will run every bit as long as new on the drive axle. In fact, we will pull new tires from some buses when they arrive and install recaps. Why? They cost $240 vs. $900 or so for four new tires that won't attain any more mileage. That's four new steer tires we don't have to buy that year. We NEVER cap a casing over 5 years old, although we will try and get three recaps out of a good casing, however school buses being what they are, low mileage vehicles compared to line haul trucks, we usually can't wear them out fast enough to get the third cap on them. If we pull a cap with 6/32 and it's over 4 years old, we'll get rid of it. We can usually get a credit for them, since truckers haul different cargo and don't mind the old casings as a rule. |
Joe
Land of the Free, because of the Brave! |
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Mechan1c
Top Member
USA
853 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2006 : 12:21:02 PM
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We also cap, our Michelin XZU-2 casings tend to last 10 years before showing signs of deterioration. A 12R22.5 front tire (Now XZU-3 $360) on a D pusher will go 40-50K, but often we will remove fronts, and move them to the rear as run-outs if they show any irregular wear; or if I'm short of caps. Our Bandag OmnibusM/S caps ($120) last about 42K on the rear. From a financial standpoint, capping makes sense for us.
"Could different rubber compounds be a factor?"
Rubber compounding does influence wear, but tread design and
inflation play a bigger role in retread performance. In fact I would say who caps your tires plays a significant role as well.
"Would you know how to read the codes on a retread. I am looking to find out how to tell how many times a tire has be retreaded. We had a tire come in and the installer had said it had been remanned 10 times. I was shocked. I had no idea you could retread it that many times."
When a retreader caps a tire they put a DOT number on the sidewall. It looks like this: RNVT C1 3205. The "RNVT" is the retreaders ID; they always start with a R. The "C1" is the chamber that the tire was cured in. The "3205" part is the date the cap was manufactured; in this case the 32nd week of 2005. If someone looked at your tire and said it had been capped 10 times, there would be 10 retreader DOT numbers along with the original new tire DOT number on the tire sidewall. Multilpe capping on school buses in unusual for reasons described in the other posts above. I have seen garbage truck and container chassis tires with multiple retreads, but never 10. If a casing had in fact, been capped 10 times, it would not be a good choice for putting on a school bus. Tom.
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Rear Tires-- New or Recapped?
